Atari ST on Amiga 500 Mini

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AnachronyX
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Atari ST on Amiga 500 Mini

Post by AnachronyX »

O.K. There is a great silence about Amiga 500 Mini https://retrogames.biz/products/thea500-mini/ in this forum. My dream is to have something similar, like Atari STe Mini or Atari Falcon Mini. But I already hear comments like "Atari ST isn't a gaming machine" or "we don't need anything like that", "this is not a real Atari", "where is MIDI?", "it's impossible to make something like this", "we have Raspberry Pi already" etc. etc.

But if anyone interested, there is YT channel called Team Pandory. In one of their latest videos they show possibility to run RetroArch on Amiga 500 Mini, so you can run many other old system except Atari ST https://youtu.be/LpL2f1RfqBQ?t=224
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Re: Atari ST on Amiga 500 Mini

Post by stormy »

With so many ways of making an Atari ST on Pi hardware, why would you want to? I know you said 'I already hear the comments' so I am genuinely interested in your answer.
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Re: Atari ST on Amiga 500 Mini

Post by AnachronyX »

It's easy. If something like that, it could rise popularity and bring some new people in our community. If you look e.g. on communities around ZX Spectrum, C64 or Amiga, there are plenty of new projects, new machines or DIY clones (Spectrum Next, many Spectrum modern clones, C64 Mini and Maxi, Amiga Mini etc.). I don't want be taken badly, but even there are a lots of exceptional people around Atari, if you compare to the other system, it seems a little dead to me.

Edit: If you look e.g. on Indie Retro News web, you can actually see: 3 new games for ZX Spectrum, 4 for Amiga and 1 creation tool, 1 new game for TI-99, new game for C64 and 2 new games for Atari XL/XE (one of them is for new hw video board called VBXE, which greatly enhance graphics capabilities).
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Re: Atari ST on Amiga 500 Mini

Post by stormy »

While it is true that the other communities are busier, we too get new stuff from time to time & when it comes to FPGA our community was the first! If it wasn't for MiST there wouldn't have been a MiSTer and also we have the Suska FPGA which is excellent. We have DML's A.G.T. game creation engine which was recently used to make level 1 of Metal Slug on STe! There is also a thread in the game section listing new enhanced blitter/DMA game ports.

In regards to your theory: putting Atari ST onto a mini a500 making Atari more available to people to make stuff... I just don't buy it, sorry :( Is that what you meant? Through Retroarch?

Because no point asking the community to make an ST Mini, that is down to the copyright holding company to do if they think it might be profitable.
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Re: Atari ST on Amiga 500 Mini

Post by ryo »

Hello

A distribution like Pimiga or Amikit dedicated to the atari ST(e)/Falcon would be beneficial for the community.

There is Rastari or beepi (fabulous job) but these distributions are outdated or require some manipulation to install.

An updated version of Rastari would be fantastic (A plug & play distribution).
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Re: Atari ST on Amiga 500 Mini

Post by czietz »

stormy wrote: Thu May 12, 2022 10:06 pm Because no point asking the community to make an ST Mini, that is down to the copyright holding company to do if they think it might be profitable.
If some company wanted to make an ST Mini, they would have to figure out who actually is the copyright owner of TOS in the first place. The answer seems to have been lost to the mists of time. (Okay, they could license EmuTOS instead.)

In case of the Amiga Mini, they had it easier. Afaik, they licensed the OS from one of the companies who owns (some versions of) it.
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ThomasI
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Re: Atari ST on Amiga 500 Mini

Post by ThomasI »

As much as I would like to see an ST-Mini, I doubt that the number would be there to justify the costs.
If a casual buyer is interested in the classic 16-bit home-computer games, I would consider the Amiga Mini the obvious option: most classic ST Games exist on both Systems with the AMIGA version often having the edge.
That means the customer base is smaller – mostly connected to personal nostalgic feelings with the platform. A platform that had a relatively small footprint to begin with.

About the scene and new stuff:
My personal feeling about the ATARI ST scene: while it is far from “dead”, there is not that much interest in “playing new games” compared to other platforms. The demo coders brought staggering new demos in recent years and there are great new game titles out as well. Just check out this video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=41yZfj66pgE
My personal feeling is that specially NEW games don´t gain much traction. Ports from existing games or improved versions from classic releases spark more attention in general. Maybe this as well is connected to the mostly nostalgic feelings.

I might be wrong with the next observation – please correct me: I feel, on other classic platforms new games are more likely to be welcomed into the “general game-lineup”. They are shown and treated similar to classic titles from the time. And they are reviewed to the same standards.
In the ST Scene new games are more of an oddity – they will always be “Homebrews”. Therefore they don´t really show up much. There are few proper reviews or long-plays, resulting in the general feeling: “There is very little new stuff out there.”
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Re: Atari ST on Amiga 500 Mini

Post by AnachronyX »

IMHO recreating of Atari Falcon could be perfect move. From modern components and for affordable price. It's my dream computer of the youth and I think many people from that time feel the same. Every modern projects like Hades, Medusa or FireBee are too pricey and if anyone try to buy any Falcon on eBay, it's extremelly pricey or it's a scam. I know, there is project called F030NG, but its github pages are without any actualization about a year and its Discord channel seems non active. For me it will be fine if we had modern Atari computer not too expensive with all good hw or sw projects in one place (e.g. EmuTOS, MiNT etc.). Because my own Atari STe is thirty years old and it won't last forever.

My biggest problem is, that nearly any thing I try to do with existing projects is lacking some functionality and I'm not able to get it fully work. For example, there's a great effort to run EasyMiNT on Hatari: viewtopic.php?t=40872 But when I fully configure Hatari and run this hdd images on them, half of apps simply don't work. And I don't know if it is my fault or bad configuration of Hatari or because I run it on emulator etc.

I see a lots of great people on our Atari scene. But sometimes see some acts of animosity here too. I remember someone who offered money, if anyone try to create some games for Atari. He was "slayed" terrible, because he allegedly offered too little. Yes, he did, but then you see, that some enthusiasts are able to create Eye of the Beholder for C64 and I doubt that they do it for money or popularity. I understand, that no one has need to make games, but why are reactions always so hard? There was another person some yeas ago, who want to do own Shadow of the Beast port. I know, he was a little jerk maybe, but reactions on his effort here were too much hostile.
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ThomasI
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Re: Atari ST on Amiga 500 Mini

Post by ThomasI »

AnachronyX wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 8:18 am IMHO recreating of Atari Falcon could be perfect move. ...
I personally like this thought process. And it is kinda similar to what is successfully happening with the MEGA65 in the Commodore 64 community: The dream computer of many that never really was, gets a physical re-incarnation in modern form. https://mega65.org/
The MEGA65 sold well as far s I know, even with its steep price.
If a Falcon ever gets a physical re-incarnation, I would most definitely buy one – no matter what.
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Re: Atari ST on Amiga 500 Mini

Post by AnthonyJ »

ThomasI wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 9:28 am If a Falcon ever gets a physical re-incarnation, I would most definitely buy one – no matter what.
IMO, the Falcon just never had (and obviously never will have) a big enough software base to make this sort of project worthwhile. Would someone really design and build a device like this so that they can play Llamazap, Bad Mood, and Double-Bobble 2000? Would anyone really be interested in such a device for using Apex + CAF?

Don't get me wrong, I loved my Falcon, but the biggest problem with the Falcon always was that it had so much unfulfilled potential.
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Re: Atari ST on Amiga 500 Mini

Post by SteveBagley »

For an 'Atari ST Mini' to work I reckon you'd need to take a very different tack to the 'A500 Mini' or the 'C64 Mini', which are solely aimed at retro games, and aim the product at a different market. The STs strength was (and still is) always in the music sphere, so aim a recreation at that market space -- i.e. package together a mini Atari ST, DX7 Mini and AKAI S1000 mini with a copy of Notator or Cubase and then you'd have a marketable product as a retro music tool. It plays to the ST strength (music) while creating a product in a different space to the A500 Mini. So people would be prepared to buy both.

You can sell it as also playing retro games as a sweetener, or even sell a version of just the ST Mini on its own.

Trouble is, a music package would eat into Yamaha, and Apple/Steinbergs current sales in a way that the A500 Mini et al don't -- there's no other market for 16-bit games unless you spend money to package them up on the iPhone, but a music creation package as above might stop people purchasing Logic Pro etc. so I suspect you'd struggle to licence the software.

Personally, I find the fact that the A500 Mini etc are just ARM chips running emulators makes them less interesting -- I can build that using a PI, or run an emulator on my Mac. Part of the fun of using older computers is getting to play with esoteric old hardware that just work in a different way, has different hardware.

On the other hand, if someone was to recreate the ST Book (literally, the MaxiST :)), or even finally finish the ST Pad -- I'd be first in the queue…

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Re: Atari ST on Amiga 500 Mini

Post by AnachronyX »

AnthonyJ wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 10:07 am IMO, the Falcon just never had (and obviously never will have) a big enough software base to make this sort of project worthwhile. Would someone really design and build a device like this so that they can play Llamazap, Bad Mood, and Double-Bobble 2000? Would anyone really be interested in such a device for using Apex + CAF?
O.K. There is some software called "fantasy consoles". It's an emulation of non existent hardware mostly with a really hard hw restrictions. The most known is Pico-8. And there are tons of new software created just for them. And some of them on very professional level:
https://carlc27843.itch.io/nebulus
https://freds72.itch.io/poom or
https://www.lexaloffle.com/bbs/?pid=24899

There are no sane reason to create something like that and write software for this. But it happens.
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Re: Atari ST on Amiga 500 Mini

Post by ThomasI »

AnthonyJ wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 10:07 am IMO, the Falcon just never had (and obviously never will have) a big enough software base to make this sort of project worthwhile.
That is a valid point. But dont forget: the same goes for the Commodore 65/MEGA 65 that was never even released. Still Commodore fans are bying it. (even I am thinking about ordering one!)
Of course I am aware, that it will stay a dream to one day own a Falcon... but it is a nice dream.
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Re: Atari ST on Amiga 500 Mini

Post by thomas3 »

AnachronyX wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 10:30 am O.K. There is some software called "fantasy consoles". It's an emulation of non existent hardware mostly with a really hard hw restrictions. The most known is Pico-8. And there are tons of new software created just for them. And some of them on very professional level:
https://carlc27843.itch.io/nebulus
https://freds72.itch.io/poom or
https://www.lexaloffle.com/bbs/?pid=24899

There are no sane reason to create something like that and write software for this. But it happens.
In my opinion.

I know what you're saying here, but the PICO is easy to code for and has (to take the words of another poster above) a non-esoteric display interface. Anyone could pick it up and apply general principles to it. The code is also high level.

The same is not true when looking to code fast gfx in 68000 using a display with only four interleaved bitplanes (ST/e). In short, it's a tremendous ballache, and can't just be picked up - even if you have experience working with other display types. Therefore, the system will only appeal to developers with a pre-existing interest in the ST/e - nostalgia, or whatever.

I started coding on the ST (initially in STOS) in 2017, and since have learnt assembly. It took me years of really hard, sustained effort to get to where I've got now, and I still have huge gaps in my knowledge. And this is not just about learning 68k - it's also about learning the quirks of the hardware, and using a system where so much has to be done bare metal (!! needs no customchips!!). I think all you need to compare is the "average" jobbing 90s developer's Amiga game versus the same on ST....... coding the ST is hard!!

Conversely, I reckon I could get something running on the PICO-8 in a couple of weeks perhaps.

Just thoughts, no antagonism intended.
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Re: Atari ST on Amiga 500 Mini

Post by guythp »

Firstly I should say I've loved the ST since I got my first fm back in '89. I've had a couple of STe's since and, for a brief while, a Falcon. Even though I no longer own a machine (at the moment) I still consider myself an ST person. I generally play ST games over the amiga version via emulation as, well, I prefer the ST versions (weird for some to get, I know) and I'd like to chip in with a needless comment to say: I hope there is never an ST mini. These mini machines are toys and the ST& Falcon aren't.
Much though I'd love to see a 'next' style STe (say, with the features Atari promised - 256 colours on-screen, 8 (iirc?) channel sound and all the other sales bumph they spouted at the time prior to its launch) I doubt it'd get past the crowd-fund stage and besides, it's still amazing to see software coming out even today that makes the ST do things it shouldn't.

Oh, and the amiga-mini really does look a bit poo :D
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Re: Atari ST on Amiga 500 Mini

Post by Cyprian »

Amiga mini is out of my interest.

Anyway why not run Atari ST on the Atari:
db52-5ad6-47ae-a222-e121b9280bc3_medium[1].jpg
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